Grief Meets Existential Dread

The What's Your Grief Podcast: grief support for those who like to listen.

In this grief podcast, Eleanor Haley, MS and Litsa Williams, MA, LCSW-C, the mental health professionals behind the website and book 'What's Your Grief', leave no stone unturned in demystifying the complicated and messy world of living life after loss. One digestible topic at a time, Haley and Williams distill topics ranging from grief theory to coping. Grief is sad and confusing, but your grief support doesn't have to be. You can listen here by using the player above or listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Below we have provided a transcript of the episode.

Episode Transcript

Welcome back to another episode of the What's Your Grief Podcast. This is Eleanor and as always I'm joined by Litsa. Litsa, what's new? How's your week been, what's going on?

My week's been pretty good actually. I think that I've been busy in a good way. I've been back to actually going to yoga regularly, which (has been) has just been good, you know. It's good for your brain, good for your brain. So I've (been) been doing that and yeah, I don't know, just (feeling) feeling okay this week. How about you?

I'm pretty good. Just it's been one of those odd weeks because it is Memorial Day weekend. And so Friday, some of my family had off and some did not and the weekend ahead (is) is a busy one. To have plans for this weekend are you just biding your time before succession.

(I just) I'm just biting my time before succession basically. It's exact counting down the hours is, I like... But I forgot about Memorial Day weekend. I've just been thinking about it more as succession finale weekend.

(I'm) I'm so curious to see how it ends.

I am too. Especially because I think the writers have said from the beginning that they sort of always knew the ending like they, (I) I think I heard something (that) that said it's not like they've just it's been evolving as they go, obviously other pieces of the show have, but yeah, (I'm) I'm here. I can't wait.

I'm curious, because I feel like throughout all the seasons it's kind of like this will-they-won't-they. Like, will they succeed in, like, taking over a business or successfully moving on from the business, you know. Getting out of the grips of it or will the business kind of take over them essentially. Yeah, I'm curious to see if the finale is just a resolution to that or if there's something more.

Right, right. Because I think the other question has been the sort of the relationship between (the) the three kids and like will it sustain or unravel? Well, it's still all through the show like there's just been the (quest) questions and alliances and I'm just really fascinated to see where that ends.

Yes. And of course because, well, I don't want to spoil anything so I guess I won't get into the grief aspects of it. Though I feel like you don't know.

Oh. I don't. I think the LA Times, literally, I think by the LA Times spoiling it for everyone, if you didn't have it, if you didn't watch it, if you didn't have it spoiled, you saw all of the articles being angry about how it was spoiled for everybody. So...

Yeah. By now, (people) people know.

Yes.

Someone important guys and there are a lot of really interesting expressions of grief, expressions of, probably something that we want to talk about today, just kind of like grappling with mortality and our existential questions. Actually I wasn't planning for that to be a segue and so our topic but it actually is...

But it is a good way. Yeah. And you know, I think one of the things that again helps with how well the existential piece works in the show, was something I heard (the) the writers talking (about) about how they did the death and why I do think people were so genuinely shocked by it, if (if) it wasn't spoiled, is because one of the things they talked about is how the way deaths often happen in real life. If it's not a person who's been sick in an anticipated death, is like smack in the middle of real life, you don't see it coming. All of a sudden there's a phone call, you know, everything else is, nothing's been pointing to it. And then it just knocks everyone off of their feet completely. And they really really thought long and hard about how to make sure that happened in the show that like viewers felt the same feeling that the family would feel of being kind of caught completely off guard by it. And I think they did such a good job with that. And I think for a show, where you know, in earlier seasons, they did deal with some illness stuff and you did think well maybe they're, and maybe anticipating this. They did such a good job of bringing us along to this place where it makes total sense that it knocked everyone over completely and that there's now this kind of existential, internal and external battle going on about it.

I think all all deaths obviously have the ability to make us think about, questions about life and life's meaning and and mortality. And honestly, we were just saying this the other day, we often don't always acknowledge that one of our grief responses is to think about ourselves a little bit and to think about our own mortality and to think about how we're spending our time here on Earth because really it's not about us, right? It's about the person who died and it's about the people who are affected by that death. But I think that it's just like this inevitable thing that a lot of us as humans do go to. It's this place we do go to. And (I) I think going back to that idea of these really sudden deaths, I think that because they happen out of the blue, we weren't expecting them. Maybe they seem out of order, maybe they seem like Oh how could that happen to this person? They were young. They seemed healthy. I think those things do make us realize like Oh my gosh. This could be anyone at any time. And (and) it has happened maybe to somebody we love very dearly. But I I definitely think it's normal for these thoughts about other people in our lives and ourselves to creep in a little bit.

Yeah. I think it disrupts our, the logic and order and reason that we put to the world that's often not real but we create a sense of safety and security by allowing ourselves to believe that we have time. And (I) I think that we have time is, we have time with the person who died like we think we're gonna have more time with them than we do, but then I think we can't help but realize the other implication is that we think we have time and we have no idea actually how much time we have. And when it's, you know, with any death but often these you know sort of unexpected ones I think the intensity of that feeling of Oh my gosh. I actually have no idea how much time I have. It's hard to not feel that in grief.

Oh gosh. Yes. I think that as an example, like, my mom died at 57 and just that ish that issue of time and age really is something. I think about all the time right now, even though it may be totally irrational, like my mom was a different person, you know, like there's no reason other than the small genetic, you know, component to the type of cancer she had, there's no reason for me to believe the same thing is going to happen to me. But I do think, all the time, I do the math in my head, because I have a little one I unexpectedly had her a little later on in life, and I am constantly thinking about like what age will I get her to, if I live the same amount of years as my mom. And so I do think, like, it does make us think a lot about how much time do we have. Like, the same thing could happen if you, even sometimes you might not even know the person but you hear about someone your age dying of something, like I think, (it's) it's a normal thing to (like) be, like, thinking about that. And, like, wondering about that. And, like, worrying about might that be me? Like, it's not necessarily healthy to, like, fixate on it, right? But, like, I do think it's a normal response that a lot of people have. But like I said we don't always acknowledge it. One, because people don't like to talk about these things. Like, people do not like to talk about death, anxiety and existential questions. Not everybody, but a lot of people don't. And two, like I said, I think it does make people feel a little bit selfish. To be thinking about themselves when someone else's is, has died, or someone else is really suffering, or when you are really suffering for someone (for someone) else.

Yeah. I think that, that is a big part of it. It does, people do feel like it's selfish when it certainly is not selfish. It's like human and from an evolutionary perspective, like our deepest drive is to just, to stay alive. Like, to keep ourselves alive. To keep the people that we love alive. Like, that is our deepest biological drive. And so, when something happens that disrupts that, I feel like it would be hard, it would be going against our biology to not be having these sorts of thoughts.

I guess an important caveat is (is) like the thought is not selfish but, Litsa you actually have an interesting story about this I think, but if you then show up, you know, for the person or comment to the person like oh gosh this makes me think about myself now, that is selfish, right?

That is so true. So so true. Yeah at my dad's funeral, I mean it wasn't at the funeral, it was at (the) the funeral home. Like, (the) the viewing or whatever you call it. Viewing I hate that word. The, but that, yep, my friend at the time, her stepdad - you know, we were, I was in, I was only 18 when my dad died, so you know, we we're still pretty young, and her stepdad was somebody that my dad hated, like hated her stepdad for reasons I won't go into - but her stepdad came up to me at the funeral home and he was so emotional. Like, you could see he was visibly, like, so upset. And this was a man who was like already a walking midlife crisis at the time. And he, you know, we start talking. And essentially at the funeral home, like, what he says is, he like starts observing that he and my dad were like about the same age and basically that it is like bringing up his own mortality stuff. And at the time I was just like this is unbelievable and if my dad were here he would appreciate, feels like the wrong word but like, appreciate that this is exactly what was happening and would be like of course, this like guy is, of course this is what he's upset about.

Yeah so save it for your therapist or your journal or you know people who are not grieving the same that that loss.

Yes, yes, yes. But (but) among people who you feel safe with or who can talk to about it. I think it is important to, you know, that you can acknowledge it. And if nothing else that you can not beat yourself up for a thing and thinking like oh gosh this is so helpful and selfish, right? No, you know, this is just something we do. And I think it's important to be able to acknowledge that. Well you brought up midlife crisis. Sort of, not really, you said it in your story. But it made me think what are people doing when they have a midlife crisis? Like, they're really like reevaluating how they're spending their time. Or, you know, trying to sort of latch on to the feeling of being younger a little bit, right. And sometimes, I think how we respond to that sense that time (time) is limited, time could be slipping, we're getting older, it can be a little bit harmful and destructive, you know. If you're going to blow up your life and, you know, go out and do all those cliché things we think about with life crisis. It might not be the most constructive, but I do think on the other end of the spectrum, a lot of people, when they have a loved one die, it really does force them to step back and, like maybe, reevaluate or maybe it clarifies for them what really matters in life and how they want to spend the time that they have. And maybe, it teaches them a lesson about how much they want to cherish the people in their lives. Or you know, there's a lot of different ways that we see this happen, but I do think that that's one kind of impact is us looking at re-examining how we're spending our time.

Absolutely. I think that when we realize in not just an abstract way, but in a way that has hit so close to home that our time is limited and hence more precious than maybe we had been giving it credit for. Or you know, when we start to look at the ways we had been spending our time and their relationships and the things that we've been really being grateful for or not being grateful for, I think it does have that ability to be very clarifying. And I think much like the midlife crisis, there can be a a risk with that, right. Like, there can be a feeling of, very early after loss for some people, of like, I need to change everything right now, right. Like, I need to quit this job that I don't care that much about and you know upend my entire life and start taking seriously what I want to do with these remaining days. And I think, in extreme versions, that can sometimes lead to making rash decisions that were happen a little too quickly. But I think, as long as it's not that extreme example of, you know, I'm gonna upend everything without giving it a lot of time to make sure that this clarifying of priorities feels the same way at six months as it did at six weeks as it, you know, that it can really help us to feel like we're moving more consciously and mindfully and deliberately forward in our life. And feel like, (I) I always feel like that in a weird way, is sort of like indirectly a connection or a bond that I have with my dad and really in a slightly different way with my sister's partner who died John, like in different ways both of those deaths made me aware of my own mortality and also aware of being lucky to make it to a certain point in life. And so in that way, I think I let my gratitude as well as my, a little bit of my, like, always there sense of my own mortality, that I do think helps me to live my life in a more mindful and thoughtful and conscious and deliberate way.I kind of think about that as a connection to them in a way that I find comforting.

Yeah. You kind of, I was thinking like similar things as you were talking. And you came around to, like, kind of saying exactly what I was thinking. Like, because I do think my mom's death has led me to feel both incredibly anxious about time passing between me and my kids. But also like has caused me to really hold on very tightly to them. And it, and (not in like a) not in like a neurotic unhealthy way, but to like want to show affection to them while I can. And wanna, you know, lay in bed for an extra like 15-minutes when my three-year-old has crawled in with me and, like, really made me stop and say, like, these moments are so precious and I want to cherish them. And I don't know, maybe, I would still realize that. Like, I don't know how. I would, the thing is, I don't know how I would feel had my mom lived, I have no idea. But I definitely think about, you know, my mom a ton, as it relates to like how I relate to my kids. So yeah, (I) I think you're right. It can create, and (this is what) this is what's interesting. Sorry, I'm like jumping around a little with my words here, but I think that, you know, when we talk about it, bringing us clarity and whatever, I think sometimes it leads people to think like oh we've reached this higher plane of enlightenment. And the reality is no, it just presents this paradox where it's like you've on the one hand feel like anxiety about the fact that time is passing or sadness or whatever or about the fact that your mortality is there. Not everybody, but I will say for myself I do, but and on the other hand you feel like gratitude and a push to be like really present with the things that matter in life.

Yeah. No, I think that that's, I mean, I think that's exactly it even if looking at it from like a really philosophical point of view. (I) I mean, I can't remember, I'm sure I've talked about this at some point on the podcast, like my undergraduate degree and my first master's degree are in philosophy, and a lot of that was because I think that I was going through a lot of existential stuff right after my dad died. And I took an intro to philosophy class and I was like wow, this is, people are just asking these questions, like this is (this is) a thing that you can just study, is people asking these big questions about life and (and I) I found a lot of comfort in that. But, you know, there is this, a number of different philosophers (I) I mean, Heidegger especially, literally uses this term being towards death. And the idea that like when we are beings towards death, which is for him, beings that are consciously aware and thinking about our own mortality and death all the time. That, it is that paradox that, like, you are then that you're a person who's thinking about your mortality and your own looming death. But that, what he talks about is that that actually allows us to see the world more clearly. To see what's important to us more clearly. To value things in ways that feel more consistent with, you know, maybe the the people that we are when we get all the other messy, like, boring life stuff out of the way. That we can actually kind of see through some of that stuff, to be able to find the things, but it (it) like you have to have one to have the other. Like, he kind of says, you have to have this awareness of your own death and the difficult feelings and anxiety that goes with that in order to also have this other piece.

Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna go (I'm gonna go) deeper in a, these are the thoughts that (that) enter my mind at night and I don't allow myself to go down the rabbit hole.

That's what (that's what) we're here to do. Though we're here to go down the rabbit hole.

Nobody ever wants to go down the rabbit hole. But I do think like we're talking about it helping me and clarify like sort of the positive side of it. But (I) I do think that there can be some very scary thoughts that are associated with (with) this kind of thinking, you know. For many people, it, again, looking at the positive, it helps them to clarify, you know, their view on spirituality and (and) afterlife and faith and a higher power and so on. But I (I) do think for some, there might be the fear that, like, is there a point to us, right. Or are we all just like grains of sand, you know, that get washed away and eventually, like, the world just, like, moves on. That's a scary, to me, that's a scary thought. A lot of people are that have found peace with that, but for me I have not.

I think, it's a really hard, I think the idea of finding peace with it. I don't know, maybe this is, maybe there are truly people who find peace with it once and then they keep that peace with it. But I almost think of it more like an (an) active process. Like that you make peace with it again and again. I (I) think because... Yeah.

...I'm (I'm) certainly in the category of I guess (a I guess) a true agnostic. Like, I (I) don't know, right. Like, I don't, I don't know. But I also feel like I make peace in an active ongoing way with the very real possibility that we are just grains of sand. And you know, and it means nothing. And I think maybe again, part of the way, that I do that in an active way or why I think of it as active, is (is) because of all of that reading philosophy that (I) I did. And the idea that there's sort of there's nihilism, where we can just go and say there's nothing and that's awful, right. Like there's nothing, and then all that leaves us with is dark emptiness. Or we can do what the existentialists say to do, which is to say because everything is empty and meaningless everything is possible and so we get to decide like what makes it meaningful and that we each get to like choose that path every day by looking at what makes (what makes) it meaningful. And I think, it's, it does feel a little scary because I think we like the idea of there being a prescribed meaning, like, or, a prescription, you know. It's like (it's like) the five stages, like, we like the idea of people like the idea of the five stages because it like puts a logic and order to it. And it says this is how it is. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of comfort in that. And I was raised in a religion that, you know, sort of had an order and logic to things and...

To me it feels like a bit of a yes and situation where it's like, yes that's a sad thought and that will always be a sad thought and all the things you just said. You know, and it's amazing that we are here, you know. And every, you know, you can find things hopefully in every day that are (are) wonderful. I think a lot of people want to tell you push you past that thought. And tell you not to think it. Or tell you, you know, you're not evolved for thinking it. I have felt very judged for having thoughts about this stuff especially ironically or maybe not ironically, I don't know in this space, in the grief and bereavement space, I feel is like not at all tolerant of people feeling like expressing death anxiety and feeling that death is bad.

I totally agree. That, that yes, I agree that (that) is the vibe, unfortunately.

There's this feeling that we should like be embracing of it, It's a part of life. And it's like yes, and that is tragic to me. Like, that to me, I (I) love being alive. I love all the people in my life and it is tragic to me that that is the case, like I don't have to be cool with that even if it's a part of life. There's a lot of things that are part of life that I am not cool with, you know. I'm getting older, I'm aging, like I'm not cool with that. I wanna (I wanna) be 20 again, you know. Like oh I want to look like I'm 20 again, you know what I mean? Like, I want to be, I want to have the brain of a 40 year old with a better memory and look like everybody. But, yeah. I (I) do feel like, for me, it's always going to be a yes. And it's always going to be, like, yes that is really scary, like, thought. And, yeah, live every day. And (and) I'm with you, like, (I'm I think I'm) I think I'm more in the middle, like, I don't know, you know. I don't know why we're here. I don't know what comes next. I (I) like to remind myself that there have been times where we fully thought that like the world was flat. Like, there, we fully thought like a lot of things that now we look at and we're like oh that was wild that we thought that, you know, and we're fully convinced of it. So, like, what else don't we know.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I know, I (I) completely, that's absolutely how I feel. I (I) do feel like in the truest form, a sense of the word I am an agnostic because I have no idea. And I've, you know, had experience, I think, there's two things I guess I would say that (that) are interesting about talking about it in the grief space. There is that sort of feeling in the grief space sometimes that, like, we're supposed to be evolving to some place of just being content with our own deaths. And like I'm (I'm) with you, like, I'm (I'm not) not just I'm not there. Like, I'm not trying to get there. Like, I'm not somebody that feels like we need to get there. I'm somebody who's okay with the idea of being sad to die.

Yeah. And I (I) honestly, I'm with you, like, I'm not trying to get to that place and I honestly feel like that doesn't make me a worse person to be in the grief support space. I honestly feel like that helps me. Because I (I) believe you when you say that this is tragic. I'm not going to say like oh that's just a part of life, not that (not that) I know a lot of group professionals that are saying that, and I hope they're not, right. But I do think that it is (it is) perfectly fine to under to believe that that's not something that you should be chill with.

Yeah. Like it's okay to not be okay with it. Like, I don't think we need to. And I think this question comes up right sometimes with people who are working in the hospice space. And when they're working or (or) with people who's deaths are anticipated and who are terminal and there's this desire to get people to the acceptance of their own death in some way. And I think in a lot of ways, that is something that makes the people around the person feel better. Like, it's not, it's (it's for) it's for us. Like, we don't want to sit with somebody's death anxiety while they're actually dying. We don't want to sit with the fact that they're devastated about their own death. And I think if people can get to a place of acceptance of their own death and (and) a reduction (in anxiety) in the anxiety, I think that that's fantastic. I think the research that they're doing now around psychedelics to try to ease death anxiety is really interesting and fascinating. I just, I also think it's not the only way. It's not the only path. And that, you know, it's okay, like, again emote feelings aren't good or bad, they just are. And we can feel this (this) fear about it or this, you know, not ever being comfortable with it, and (and) that's okay too. And that's the thing I wish there was more a little bit more space for conversation about (in the) in this space. And (and) I think, the other thing that's hard is, you know, that I think being someone who is truly agnostic, I also think is a benefit because for people who have strong faith and belief in an afterlife and all of that, I think like that absolutely that might completely be it. Like, I'm (I) both 100%, I can both sort of 100% think that might be it. And simultaneously for the people who think that there is absolutely nothing other than we become part of the Earth again, and you know, energy is never destroyed and so we're still somehow part of this physical place but that's all I also sort of a 100% think that that could be it. And in that way I (I) find that helpful like I actually, yeah, I find it helpful that I kind of fully can be in both of those places at the same time. But I do think sometimes the conversation and the grief space for people who really do use their belief in an afterlife and experiences that they've had with mediums and with other, you know, things like that, when that has, honestly I (I), it's such a huge part of the grief space. Like, the number of books on, even I was just reading somebody who was talking about on grief and grieving, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross's book that, you know, at the end of her life and that she and David Kessler wrote, and this person was reading it for the first time and was like shocked about how much things like the afterlife and mediums were part of Elisabeth Kübler-Ross's life and work at the end of her life. You know, it's just always been (an) a part of the grief space for some very prominent people in the (in the) grief space. And I think that sometimes talking about that, because it is so important to some people and such a source of comfort to some people, then makes it hard to, I don't know, talk about, well like yeah, maybe there's an afterlife, and maybe there's not and like that it's there's a lot of people on the other side who are, you know, very confident there's not. And yeah, I don't know, it just, it makes it tricky, I think, as people (as people) who exist in this space both as professionals and as people who have been grieving. I think that what we need to acknowledge is that we do go through all these different questioning and exploration and that is such as, like, an individual experience. And so we kind of have to just allow for people to reach their own conclusions, you know. And be, if one person wants to go to a medium, I mean that's not me, but one person wants to, that's (that's) fine, you know. That's (that's) where they're searching is taking them. And if somebody has a really strong faith, like, I'm (I'm) really glad for that because that's an excellent support in their grief. Like, that's (that's) a good thing, you know. And so I think, just allowing for all these things to exist and, you know, talk you were talking about how we often want people to reduce their death anxiety and come to a place of acceptance when they're dying and I am with you, like, I don't think we need to force that either. Like, it's wonderful if people can get to that place if they're, if they want to get to that place, if there's help to get them to that place. But it's also okay, you know, not to want to go quietly into that dark night. Like, that is perfectly fine. Like, my dad has made it abundantly clear he is not going to and I do remember I think, I've probably even recently mentioned this on the podcast, there being some sort of turmoil between like my mom not really wanting to accept that and (and) people wanting her to. And I've heard in a lot of different professional spaces that we're in like people saying things like Oh this person only has three months to live and they're not accepting of that. What do I do to help them accept that? And I'm just like, I think because of my experience with my mom I'm like, You let them feel how they feel. Like, you do not, it is not your job to force someone to get to a place of accepting their (their) death.

Yeah. Because it would be easier for everybody around them. I, you know, it's true and there's so much work, right in the dementia space now about, you know, how we should, I mean there's always been in all forms of helping of, you know, we should meet people where they are, but, you know, I think dementia is especially interesting because stopping this inclination people have to correct people or push back and and, you know, on things when they're confused about where they are time and things like that. And it's just interesting that I think we do have this feeling of like wait, well if somebody's dying I want to (I want) to use this time to push them to get to that acceptance place when really, I think there's a lot of space to be able to say like the reason it's so hard to accept is because life has been so amazing, and being alive has been so amazing. And (and) then of course as humans, it's really it's really hard for us. And I think to get comfortable with the idea that tension, these sorts of tensions, aren't a flaw or a failure. I think even in the spirituality space, one of the things that I think people worry about when they have, when grief creates a crisis of faith and where there may be questioning of if there is a God and what the nature of that God is and questions about the afterlife and all the things that we know come up for people while they're grieving, that one of the reasons they don't like to articulate that or that they have problems sometimes, is because they share those anxieties with other people of faith or sometimes even with their faith leaders, and are sometimes met with deep deep criticism. And, you know, feelings that it is somehow not godly to question God. Or that there is, that it's somehow their failure as a human that they've done this. And one of the reasons I appreciate Kate Myers work so much and what she's done is really talked about that idea that if there is a God, like, God can handle every bit of that questioning and we were created as beings with the ability to question. And that remarkably for most people, when they go through a crisis of faith and come to the other side, if they do come to the other side of still having that faith, they feel that that faith is stronger than it's ever been because it withstood that at everything, questioning. And I, so I think being able to sit with that the tension of all of those things ,it's so important, but it's something that sometimes people are just not naturally inclined to do with grievers.

Yeah. I do think one thing that's important for everybody to remember is that questioning, like you said, can lead to deeper understanding. One of the areas, in fact, of post-traumatic growth is spirituality, where, you know, in people who know about post-traumatic growth will tell you like post-traumatic growth happens when things do get torn down to a point where you don't know which way is up and you don't know what's right and you don't know what's wrong, you don't know what's true, you don't know what's false. And so a big part of that is questioning it and building it differently or rebuilding. And so with that, when it, in the area of spirituality a lot of times, it's like because things got so torn down that you had to ask some really big questions and you had to seek some really deep answers that then you sort of build it back in a way that's even stronger. And that has grown so I do think questions can make people uncomfortable for a wide range of reasons but like, it's (it's) very normal and it can often lead to greater understanding.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think in every faith tradition, major faith tradition, questioning and (and) stories of people who have been questioning are part of the history of almost every faith. And not in ways that those people are demonized or talked down about in things, like the Bible and in other, you know, (others) other faith works, but actually as something that is just looked at as human. And so I think, it even coming from that perspective, it's that faith perspective, is this belief that this is part of our humanity, you know. This (this) questioning, it is (it's) not a failure of our human, you know, a failure for us as humans. So, yeah. I mean it's a (it's a) big topic.

Anything's a big topic. And obviously it's one that you and I both thought about a lot and could probably go on all day about. So we'll wrap up here for now. And we invite you to email us at whatsyourgrief@gmail.com if you have any thoughts about this, any suggestions for related topics or unrelated topics. And also, we're going to include some information about our community for people who are grieving. What, we just (we just) changed the name, what did we change the name to?

The What's Your Grief Hub for Learning and Connection.

Yes, I'll remember that in the future.

I mean, it's a little bit of a mouthful. We'll probably just be calling it like The Hub.

We are doing sort of periodic enrollment so that (that) helps us to better bring people into the community and orient them to the community and so on. So there's periods of time where registration is open, (and there) then there are periods of time where it's a wait list. And so right now we are registering for our summer cohort. We're going to be doing lots of really good stuff in the community. Lots of learning type of stuff, lots of artistic kind of stuff. Of course we have conversations there for those who want to have conversations and have connection around, lot of different topics. So we really encourage you to check that out and you can always email us if you have questions about that as well.