Moving Forward Challenges (in the New Year and Beyond)

What's Your Grief Podcast / What's Your Grief Podcast : Litsa Williams

The What's Your Grief Podcast: grief support for those who like to listen.

In this grief podcast, Eleanor Haley, MS and Litsa Williams, MA, LCSW-C, the mental health professionals behind the website and book 'What's Your Grief', leave no stone unturned in demystifying the complicated and messy world of living life after loss. One digestible topic at a time, Haley and Williams distill topics ranging from grief theory to coping. Grief is sad and confusing, but your grief support doesn't have to be. You can listen here by using the player above or listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Below we have provided a transcript of the episode.

Welcome to another episode of the What's your Grief Podcast. This is our first podcast of the 2024 year. Which is hard to believe, though we have not been consistent in recording podcasts regularly. I think we initially started recording podcast episodes was it 2016 Litsa, or?

2014 so this.

Oh my gosh. So 10 years of inconsistent podcast from us.

Woo, yay!

We, (we) we've yet to find a formula that works, but we (we) think maybe we're on to we're going to get onto a good path here in 2024. That's one of our unofficial resolutions, I think, right.

I mean I would not have said that but sure. I'll take it if you're gonna say it.

I mean it feels like empty promises at this point but let's see. Let's see how it goes. How about that.


We'll take it one episode at a time and see how it goes.

That is what I would have said, yes. Correct.

Right. Well we are actually going to be talking about the new year a little bit. We know for some of you, you're like, Okay we're a week into it can we stop talking about it. But we have heard in multiple different places, from people who really found new years to be difficult. And from people who are grappling with that feeling of, kind of that paradox of moving forward, wanting to move forward, wanting to rebuild things in their lives, wanting to kind of heal from the pain but also not. Like desperately not wanting time to pass and not wanting to move further away from the life that they lived with someone they love. And so we thought, you know, what like this would probably be a good topic to talk about, not just as it relates to New Year's, but as it relates to really struggling with that push and pull of moving forward but not moving on.

Yeah. I (I) think this is something, over the years, that we've talked about many times in different ways. But I think that the thing that it come, that comes up for so many people is when they feel like it is somehow a sign that they are letting go if they are, if time is passing. That (that), like the automatic extension of the passage of time. Or the automatic extension of things starting to feel different in whatever way they feel different. Whether it's because of a new year or because...


...of anything new. Like a change to a new job, deciding to move to a new home, doing (doing) anything that marks this difference between what's happening in the world now and what the world was when that person was still here or when my past looked like it once did, I think brings up all of these questions for people. Yeah.

So, I think we want to back up and and just focus on the new year of it all. And then we have a question, we have this series in our griever community called Ask the Grief Expert, where people can ask questions and we will answer them in one form or another or if we don't have an answer we have our Griever Professional Community, our Grief Professional Community, and they (they) can maybe answer the questions. Sorry, my dog is being noisy in the background. So we have a a question that really relates to this. And then, before we wrap up, we want to talk a little bit about a free webinar we have coming up just about grieving in 2024 in the new year. So, just backing up and focusing on that New Year's piece of it, why, what are some of the reasons why you think New Years is really unexpectedly hard. That's the one thing I've heard from a lot of people is that it was unexpectedly hard for people.

I think part of the reason is that when, you know, when people talk about holidays being difficult, there's often this, I don't know, almost like that imagery of the empty chair around the holiday table and thoughts about holidays that are really focused on family and togetherness and having someone missing. And I think, New Year's isn't one of those holidays, right. Like, you don't picture a big family meal on New Year's. And so I think, in ways, one of the things that happens is people discount that it's going to be hard. Like, so there's this assumption that it's not going to feel hard in the way that Thanksgiving might have felt hard or that Christmas might have felt hard. And so in (in) that sense I think, sometimes people don't see it coming as much. And then at the same time, what New Year's does bring is not that big holiday meal imagery that is coming with other holidays but it is all of this language about New-Year-New-You, and moving forward into a new year, and the things that you're leaving behind and taking with you. And so all of a sudden there is this really significant emphasis on the passage of time. And there is this really significant emphasis on the idea that somehow we leave certain things in the past and then we, you know, have to move forward as this new person in 2024. And I think when that messaging is everywhere it's hard not to suddenly feel like it is this intense reminder of both the passage of time moving us further away from someone or something that we've lost. And also putting a spotlight on who we are, how we're coping, what we're doing, you know. Are are we feeling good about where we are. Are we feeling good about moving forward. You know, it shines a light on all of those things which then ends up being really difficult and (and) brings up so many grief emotions, I think.

Yeah. I (I) agree fully. Especially with it regards to the unexpected piece. I think we talk so much about the winter holidays, people celebrate various holidays during the winter. And we talk so much about how to get through those days, how to cope with those days, why those days are going to be hard. And I think once those wrap up, people are like woof, you know. They've used all their brain power, and their stamina, and their their physical energy. And then we run up in to New Year's, and people are like, Oh, I already used everything I had first of all and now we're talking about like New-Year-New-Me, right. And then also it's just like this unexpected gut punch of ringing in a New Year, the, oftentimes it's the first new year without someone, a person is missing. Sometimes it's the second, or the third, and that passage of time is just feeling really difficult for that person in that moment. But I (I) do think it's like this weird end to a marathon, that would, that's like it's like ending a marathon and then having some really stressful challenge at the very end as opposed to like a (a) chance to sit down and rest and have a water break. That, I was joking with you about the new-year-new-me thing. We did a webinar on that last year on New Year's. I remember it was titled something like New Year Same Old Grief or something. But it's just interesting that we put this time of our, like, of that year or the beginning of the Year rather, we use that as the time when we are supposed to like, start all these new hobbies and initiatives and healthy eating and exercise. Like all these things, when I'm speaking for myself, here in the mid-atlantic where it is cold and it is rainy and sometimes snowy and sometimes slushy and dark, this is the last time, this is, that I would be able to really have that type of energy and that type of renewal. Like, it would make much more sense, I feel like in the spring, when I didn't just wrap up the holidays which can be so much stress, and when I feel like I have more energy, it feels like the last time on Earth I would choose to start all these things. But then I do. I (I) internalize, just like everybody else, that pressure. Not everybody else, some people have manage to to rise above it. But I internalize that pressure for sure.

Yeah. I, you know, I think I've (I've) gotten a little bit better about not internalizing it over the years. But I think it's hard not to. The messaging is everywhere. And I completely agree. Like, as (as) someone who does really believe in and want to feel more kind of connected with the cycles of our natural, like rhythms, from day to day, week to week, month to month, seasonally all of those things. The win, everything about out the winter is… Yeah. all about, you know, kind of turning inward, hibernating, being able to slow down. Like, that's what it feels like winter should be about. And the idea that suddenly in the middle of the winter, we're gonna push through with this sort of Renewed Energy, it just doesn't seem like it matches what is happening with the cycle of the seasons. At least where we are in the world.

Right, where we are.

Because of the seasons.

And with grieving people especially. After you've just gotten through. I (I) think can, what can often be, if it's not the hardest time of the year, it's one of the hardest times of the year for people. You know, depending on the rituals and traditions and holidays that are important to you, this might have been one of the most challenging times of the year. So it's (it's) really hard to then say Okay, now I'm gonna (now I'm going to) use the very little amount of energy I have to (to) make all these changes. Though,
I think they are, it's reasonable to think that there are changes that can be made, and that's, I said we were going to talk about the webinar at the end but maybe now would even be a good time to mention it or you were gonna say something else, go ahead. That I will.

Yeah. I (I, I) want to pause, I, I'll mention the webinar, but I think before one of the other things that I heard from people, even more this year probably than any other year, was a reminder that for some people in grief, it isn't the hardest time of the year. That actually, like the holidays felt like a nice distraction, and a nice reprieve. And like, it was the first time since the loss that they felt like they had something to really look forward to and throw themselves into. And so, I think one of the interesting things, though, is that even when that's the case for folks, the end of the holidays can then be sad for different reasons. It's like, Oh, now this thing that I was able to use as a distraction from my grief, and that felt really hopeful, and I had the lights and the decorations, and I was kind of feeling really good, all of a sudden I think that (that), for me at least, going into January, like, looking through to January and February and March, they are bleak months, sometimes. There is like, not it's (it's) dark, it's cold, there's not a lot to look forward to. So interestingly, I think on both sides. If you're somebody who's grieving and the holidays were so hard because they are so hard, then this New Year's stretch can be hard. And if you're somebody who was like the holidays were actually great, they were really a highlight, they were a reprieve, sometimes it can still feel like, Okay. Now though I feel this big let down that I have to kind of get back to regular life, which means regular grief again. And that ties a little bit, I guess, into the webinar that we're gonna do. It's on Sunday the 14th. So, if you want to join, it's free. There's, I'll put the link in the show notes. But, really, the webinar is just about grieving in the new year but not in that new-year- new-me kind of way. Not in that, like, let's make resolutions about our grief. But how do we be more intentional and thoughtful about what we want the coming year to look like in our grief using what we know about the past year of our grief, or the past stretch of months. Whatever we know. However much time it's been sense your loss. Doing a period of, or engaging in some sort of reflection that is Okay. What have I learned about myself, about my loss, about my grief, about my support systems. You know, what do I know about where I am. What do I want more of in the year to come. What do I want less of. How do I actually figure out how to get there. And how do I do it in a way that isn't about some sort of idea that we're we're finding closure and letting go and moving on. You know, all the things that we know that grief is not. But instead that we're figuring out how to carry our grief with us into the new year in a way that feels more intentional, and in a way that we feel good about and we feel like we can really sustain and do thoughtfully, not do like some sort of weird New Year's resolution.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that that's going to be a really reasonable and relatable and accessible approach for a lot of people. I think the thing that feels very hard for people is when they're maybe hearing from people that they need to let go or move on into the new year. And it gives them the sense that they need to like let go of their grief or let go of their loved one. And we like to remind people, like, absolutely not. Like, that's not what happens. But there are things within our grief and within our lives that we might want to find ways to cope with or ways to move on from. Just things within it, you know, that we want to find healing with. Doesn't mean that we're going to heal all of it. It means that we're going to, maybe, focus on a few of the things that are really, we're really struggling with. And that we really don't feel work for us in our life. And I, I'm glad you pointed out that for a lot of people the holidays were that welcome distraction. Because that absolutely I can see. How that's true for a lot of people. I definitely understand what you mean by when you get down to the, when you get to the New Year part of it all it does feel like there's so much activity and then everything comes to, like that grinding halt. Like, even, you know, this year for us, I don't drink anymore, I have a four-year-old, so I'm not going to a lot of parties or anything. And it felt like, Gosh, I have nothing to do on New Year's. And I felt like I should have something to do, you know. I feel like sitting here on the the couch feels wrong. And you know, we've been go go go and now we're just kind of not. And that did feel, on some level for me, kind of not exactly what I wanted. Now, other people might be like Yes, please. Like, just let me sit on this couch. And it really depends for every person. But, what I'm trying to say is I can (I can) definitely see how people would feel that way. That after the activity ends then they're like Well, shoot. Now, it's really quiet and I am left, you know, kind of maybe to myself or back to my life that was just me and my grief or, you know, the stress of the day to day to day to day. So, I do think that trying to find maybe some direction, like (like), with for example, with this webinar, which again, I (I) don't want it to seem like we're like using this podcast as a sales pitch, this is a free webinar for anyone, right.


Open to everybody. So, no this is just us saying like Hey, if this is a topic that's interesting to you we have a next step. But I do think approaching it the way that you described is a way when you have like January and February stretching out in front of you to take that time and to maybe be a little more directed and a little more intentional in how you're thinking about your coping.

Yeah, absolutely. And how to do that in a way that feels sustainable. I think, that's the the biggest thing for me that feels discouraging about New Year's is how we know that people do set resolutions and goals and intentions and all the research shows that by February, for most people, the, those things are already a distant memory. And so, I do think that we should be cautious about you doing like these grand goals, resolutions. But when it is a little bit inescapable, when it is a time where that is surrounding us, I think if we could, can do it thoughtfully and really think about how do, we, be reasonable about our intentions and set them in a way that is going to be sustainable, that we can kind of leverage a little bit of the (the), I don't know, the good things about New Year, giving us a space to reflect in a way that we might not have.

And the kind of quiet of (of) winter, that a lot of people experience, where there's less going on outside, less ability for a lot of people to get out and about. Maybe this is time that, you know, we can use in a way that's that's kind of purposeful.

Absolutely. I have not read it, but in (in) our Grief Professionals Community we had The Grieving as a grief professional space on Friday and somebody mentioned the book Wintering, which I have not read but I looked it up afterwards, as a book that really kind of highlights a little bit of what we're talking about. Leaning into that idea of wintering and how we can use this time as, like a period of rest, to be able to then help sustain us through the year. So, I, I'm going to check it out. I, I immediately was like Oh, this book, this is what I need right now.

Yeah. I have so many books on my must read list.

Same. Obviously, same. And my endless list.

I mean, and so many movies that I want to watch. It's so hard. It's so hard to fit it all in. And (and) yet I fit none of it in, usually. So.

Well, I mean, I. Yeah. I (I) know it feels difficult to fit it all in. The list is long.

Yeah. It is. It sure is. So, I did want to share a question we received as a part of our ask a grief expert series. Again, this is a series that we do with our griever community. And we'll provide information about our griever community to any body who's interested, in the show notes. But the idea is that they can ask and we'll answer or we'll find a grief expert to answer the question. But I really, though this is not New Year specific, I felt that it related a little bit to some of the struggles that we hear people expressing around the New Year especially as it relates to the passage of time. So I'm going to read the question and then we'll see if we have any constructive feedback or (or) thoughts on it. The question is Some days, I go several hours without thinking of my daughter who died four years ago. And then it hits me and I feel guilty and worried I will forget her. Can you talk about moving on, letting go, living my best life but not forgetting.

I love this question because I think it is just one that almost everybody relates to in some way. Like, that feeling. And I think, again, it's connected to this time of year, but it is true at any time. And one of the things that I think is so important to remember or helpful, at least has always been helpful for me, is kind of trying to ground ourselves to remembering what relationships are like when people are alive. And that sometimes actually, that can be helpful in thinking about what relationships look like with people after they have died. You know, when (when) someone is here, when somebody was alive we're not thinking about them every minute of every day. That's just the reality, right. Like, even you know, our partners who we love, our siblings, our parents, our children, you, as we move through our day-to-day life, we're working, we're grocery shopping, we're doing all of these things, and we're not at every minute of every day sort of thinking about the people who we love, who are are still alive and present in our lives. Interestingly, I think when someone dies, because the immediacy, the overwhelm of that loss, the intensity of acute grief, it feels like that shifts. And suddenly we are thinking about the person who died all the time. We're thinking about our grief all the time. It feels all consuming. We can't imagine that we will get through a (a) work day without thinking about the absence of this person, that they're missing, that they're gone. And so, it almost sets this new standard for us that what we're supposed to be doing, at all times, to keep that connection with the person is to be thinking about them, thinking about the fact that they're gone, and sort of connecting with our pain. Because that feels, our pain feels like our connection to them. And it's a big shift, I think, that has to happen when we start to realize that, Wait, you know, our pain is not actually our connection to them. Thinking about them every minute of every day, that's not actually a necessary connection, either we don't need that to still be connected. Just like when they were here, we weren't thinking about them every minute of every day. And then to start to understand what it looks like for us to evolve, what our connections are, in a way that allows this space to become the person that we want to be in the world with our grief, with our grief integrated into our lives, and also in a way that feels like we're rebuilding a life after loss. And I think it's it's tricky, right. Like, it's complicated getting there. But I think that it is, and just, I don't know, it's an important question because I think it is part of the grief journey for everybody.

Oh yeah.

I, the word grief journey. But I, it is, I think part of it for everybody.

Yeah. I think that's a good point. And I think that, you know, finding those connections and the way that we continue to have that relationship really doesn't even mean letting go of of the pain. Some people are uncomfortable with the idea of letting go of the pain. And (and) frankly it's not (it's not) something that actually happens when you really really love and miss somebody. Because even those connections, like, it's a two-sided coin where it's like you remember and you have warmth and maybe happiness or joy or whatever feeling you feel, but you also are going to, at the same time feel pain that they're not here. So, you aren't even letting go of the pain to focus on (on) more maybe warm or positive connections or the things that you love about them that continue to live on and that you continue to remember. I don't know what, like, I don't want to say unfortunately. It's just reality that the pain (the pain) still comes along with it. It's just a different way of kind of seeing both sides of (of) that (that) feeling and that experience and that emotion and that coin.

And that you manage that you're not as fearful of the pain, I guess. I think that's one of the things that changes. Like, you (you) learn that you can handle the pain and be with the pain and manage the pain and (and) that helps us to be less scared of the pain.

Right. Yeah. And it's kind of, it's, you're accessing it in a different way. Like, it's kind of balanced a little more by something that feels, maybe, a little more positive and warm. I don't know. I can't find the right word, really, to describe what (what) those ongoing connections mean. And I guess maybe that's because it mean they feel different for everybody. I also think here is where dialectical thinking can be really helpful. And, we've probably talked about dialectical thinking a hundred times on (on) this podcast, but just that idea that two things can be true at once it's not an either or scenario, so many things in life feel like they're either or but they're not. And it's not either we're holding on or moving forward. It's not either we're grieving or, the question used the words, living your best life. But I think it's (it's) "and", right. We're holding on and we're moving forward. And what does that look like to hold on and move forward. We're grieving and we're trying to find ways to live life in a way that connects us to our purpose and our value. And dialectical thinking is one small shift, but I just, I feel like it is such an important shift for people to make that flexibility of thinking. It can just be so useful and it, it's something that I think takes practice. I find myself all the time reminding myself to step back and replace or with and. It's like that improv rule, right. It's not but, it's yes and. And it's, I always think about that because so many things can be true all at the same time. We don't have to choose one or the other always when we think that we do.

I was just thinking about this the other day, because I was reading something that Nick Cave, the musician, had written about his son's death. He's had two sons die since 2015. And one of his sons was a twin, and died in a (a) really tragic accident, when I think he was maybe around 15. And he was talking about how they were sort of bracing themselves as parents for the grief of their other son, who his twin, and how, you know, what (what) that fallout would be. And he was talking about his son's really coping after and what that has looked like. And one of the things he talked about was that, he, they were inspired by their son in many ways, in how he coped. And part of what his son really tapped into was this idea of like Everything I do now I do for Arthur. Like, I do that for my twin who died. And it was this sort of shift away from that survivor guilt that I think can be consuming for people of saying, if I do things now, if I enjoy life, if I live my best life as the person who, you know, asked the question phrased it that somehow it's a betrayal, versus being able to see it as, No. It's actually an honoring. It can be a legacy. It can be this feeling, I think we've I know you've written before about that physician who talks about this with his son and calls it co-destiny. This idea that it can be for the the person. Because in so many ways, right, grief allows this ability to see how fleeting life can be and what we do have while we're here. And, I just, you know, when I (I) read Nick Cave talking about it I thought, it was really powerful for a few reasons, but you know, a big one was just how (how) you could tell he and his wife were just so genuinely inspired to see the way that their son was able to shift that and articulate that, and also very actively and honestly be grieving and engaged with his grief and also really building this beautiful life.

Yeah. I love that idea of co-destiny. And Lucy Hone also talks about it in her book Resilient Grieving. And I think the (the) name of it explains what it is. It's just this idea that many of the things you find yourself doing big and small, it doesn't have to be something big and huge. It can be something that has a small impact on you or on people in your life. They are things that you might do in that person's kind of honor or memory. Or because that's something that they loved or found important or cared about. And so many of the things that you do might on some level be sort of motivated by that person. And this is true about people who are living and who've died, right. We're always kind of pushed forward by the people who matter to us. And so, I really love that idea of co-destiny. And just thinking, like, practically how people can remind themselves that they're not moving on and they're not letting go, they're moving forward. I do think finding those ways, spotting those things in (in) one's life that do look like co-destiny, or maybe, it's maybe you want to do something big and choose something that feels like a co-destiny. Maybe you want to take on a hobby you guys always talked about doing together that that person loved or got started and wasn't able to finish. Yeah. Maybe it's an unfinished project of theirs. So, you know, maybe that's one way to, like, actually hands-on find a way to (to) bring them forward, is something like co-destiny. What are some of the other, like, little practical or small ways that a person can really just refocus and remind themselves that that person is not gone even though we're moving into a new year we're not leaving that person behind in that new year in that past year. Even though time is passing, taking the New Year's out of it, even though time is passing that that person is still very much connected. Do you have any, like, little tips or little things that you do or things you've heard other people doing.

Well, you know, I don't know if this is a (a) tip. And I feel like this is something I, that we have maybe also said a hundred times but… Sure. I (I) feel like one thing that I am very aware of as time passes after losing people is, like, that ability to talk about people without the fear of being overwhelmed by our grief. Like, that without the fear of breaking down in tears or without the fear that, like, the minute that I mention this that I'm not going to be able to kind of contain my grief in some way. And for me, I think that, seeing that in my own life, like seeing that all the way going back to my child, I mean when my best friend's mom died when I was seven, I actually have like a pretty (pretty) specific memories of being scared to, like, talk about. Being scared that I was going to start to cry every time I talked about her. And kind of remembering when I got to the point that I was like Okay. I can, we can talk about her. We can like remember her without just feeling like it becomes a puddle of tears every time. And that (that) was really meaningful because it opened up this new space where we could just like share memories or we could talk about things with other people. And certainly then, as I (I) got older and after my dad died and losing other people, I've, it's something I've (I've) thought of often. And for me, I think that, you know, it's not (it's not) a tip I guess in any way, it's more just that it's something that's always helped me to remember that sometimes that passage of time and that ability to learn to manage our pain (pain) differently. It actually then allows me to talk about the person more with other people, whether it's people who knew them or didn't. Like, it be, I remember when it got easier for me to just say in conversation that my, you know, talk about my dad even after he had died and feel like I was going to be able to do that in a way that didn't overwhelm me with grief. And then that just allowed me to get really comfortable, like, talking about it and not worrying about making other people uncomfortable if they, you know, are they gonna have that moment of like Oh, oh no, your dad died. Like, being able to just get past that and know that that was okay, and I could still really have moments of talking about him and sort of introducing him to people who didn't know him…


…through my stories, and it, and I, and really, I kind of needed to be a little bit further away from the intensity of the pain of early grief to be able to do that.

Yeah. So I (I) love that, I, that thought that even though time, it does feel like a thief. There's things that kind of grow in (in) that time that bring you closer in a way. And it seems so counter intuitive that time could bring you closer to someone from who (who) is in the past at this point just strictly speaking about timelines like physically in lived in the past. I love that idea because it just, it's so counterintuitive to what we would think that time could bring us closer to somebody but it, I totally hear what you're saying. And even though it might not be a tip, I do think it's a normalization that (that) we should talk about these people and we should mention them if we're comfortable to people who didn't know them. One of the things I just love is thinking about those, like, isms. Those things that a person used to say and saying them myself and sometimes maybe I don't feel comfortable or strong enough to say Oh my mom always used to say that to a person, but maybe I (I) will say them and think that myself, you know. And so, it's those little things, I (I, I )do love that idea of feeling like you can talk about them, bring them into the present in that way. I love being able to talk to my kids about my mom and tell them about her. I think that goes along with that idea of introducing them to somebody who never knew the person. And in that way they continue to exist like she's kind of become, you know, taken on that status that a lot of people who've died do, where you're kind of like this like legendary idea of a person. And I'm fine with that. I'm perfectly okay with that. Because I (I) think my mom was great. And so, yeah. I (I, I) love that, I love that (that) sentiment and that way of looking at it. One thing that I, we have talked about a lot with people, again this is not new, we probably have mentioned it before especially when we talk about photography interestingly, is this idea of just noticing the things that exist in the world that your loved one would have loved. And then maybe just noticing yourself, maybe we, I said we talk about this with photography, we often encourage people to like take a picture of it, you know, take a picture on your phone and keep it for yourself or you could send it to someone else and say Hey. Wouldn't (wouldn't) dad have loved this. Or you could post it online and share it that way with people who you're connected with. But I just love that idea of thinking about the things that they would have really loved. And that does bring a sadness. I (I) know recently, oh my gosh I don't even remember the teams we were talking about, but talking about some of the sports teams that were really good now and how they're, the person was sharing that they're really happy because their dad really loved the team, I want to say it's the Bills I don't know, I know they're in playoff, they're going to the playoffs, so I think maybe that was them, but also sad that they didn't live to see it. And so there's, like, again that talk going back to the beginning where we talked about how there are these really positive moments that bring sadness as well. But just noticing and thinking about the things that they would have loved, I think is (is) kind of a nice way to stay connected and continue to think about that person.

Yeah. Absolutely. And it, you know, it just highlights, like, that the way even our moments of, like, appreciating those things and sort of that we wouldn't appreciate it. Like, we can we can appreciate it often because they appreciated it. And I've (I've) been thinking about that a lot lately. Because I have a friend, a couple, who over the last two years both died, and I, recently there are a number of moments that I have had that like Oh, would have loved this feeling about them. And you know, they lived on their boat and they really were people who kind of introduced me to so many things about boats and like the world of traveling and sort of what they did. And it's been interesting recently because I've had a lot of moments of like, Oh, would have loved this. I wish I could send them a picture of this. And those moments also make me so aware of how much they impacted me, right. Like, that they've allowed me to appreciate things about the world that I would never have appreciated had they not introduced them to me or had I not sort of seen the world through their lens of seeing the world. And that I continue to do that in these moments. And so, I think, there's so much comfort in that in different ways. Because it helps us to feel that that ripple effect of the way those people are still impacting us all the time.

Yeah. I, yeah, totally I, for sure agree (agree) with that. Totally for sure. Yes. I am a grown woman totally for sure, but I grew up in the 80s so can't you tell. Well, I, unless you have any other suggestions you wanted to add, Litsa, I think that kind of brings us to a close. I don't know, did you have anything else you. want to add? No, We'll share one more time, that we are doing a webinar on Grieving in the New Year that is going to be free and open to anyone who's interested uh and we will post the information about that in the show notes. And we'll also post information about our community. And with that, I guess we are bringing it to a close and we'll talk to you all next week.

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