Podcast Episode: Grief Expectations

The What's Your Grief Podcast: grief support for those who like to listen.

In this grief podcast, Eleanor Haley, MS and Litsa Williams, MA, LCSW-C, the mental health professionals behind the website and book 'What's Your Grief', leave no stone unturned in demystifying the complicated and messy world of living life after loss. One digestible topic at a time, Haley and Williams distill topics ranging from grief theory to coping. Grief is sad and confusing, but your grief support doesn't have to be. You can listen here by using the player above or listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Below we have provided a transcript of the episode.

Episode Transcript

[Music] Welcome to the What's Your Grief Podcast. I'm Eleanor Haley. And I'm Litsa Williams. We're the mental health professionals, turned grief friends, turned co-founders of the website whatsyourgrief. In this podcast, we talk candidly about all things grief. From pop culture, to grief theory. No tilted heads, no soothing tones, just us and our grief friends exploring the always devastating, often confusing and sometimes even funny experience of living life after loss. [Music]

Hey this is Eleanor.

And this it's Litsa. And we are back with another episode of the What's Your Grief Podcast.

Welcome everybody. We are so happy to be back again today. How's it going Litsa?

Oh, you know. It's been going all right. Just sort of, I was just thinking yesterday, I don't know, I feel like I'm in this place where, now summer is winding down, the world still feels as sort of, you know, kind of weird and out of sync and, yeah, so just sort of like trucking along. Not, I don't know, not really much to report.

Yeah. I hear you. It's (it's, it's) that awkward time when it's like summer and you still want to savor the last couple days, but it's also like not summer anymore because it's winding down and, you know, that falls on the horizon and there's like part of you that's happy for fall to come. The weather yesterday was like very fall-like, but a little hotter but it was so nice to open the windows and everything. But then there's the part of you that doesn't want to give up on the summertime.

Yeah. Exactly.

Very. And (and) also with everything going on, it's just, I think, I typically from day to day have a general feeling of, like, just not knowing how to feel. So yeah. It's an interesting time I think, that is something that lots of people have been saying and I (I) think it's true. So, yep.

Absolutely.

Okay. So we have some exciting news here at What's Your Grief before we get into our main topic. Litsa, do you want to share the news?

For sure. I mean the news isn't like all that new, but that is… Yeah. …that's largely why we haven't recorded for a little while. We've been busy with to get lots of things and one of them is that we launched a new website! Or a web redesign. Not a (not a) new site. But the new and improved What's Your Grief website. And, so that was a project long in the making and we're pretty excited that it's actually up and running now.

Yeah. To be honest, I'm sure it's far more exciting for us than anybody listening to this.

That is true.

Because it's, like you know, it's like a house you live in. Like, you get tired of looking at the same old curtains and the same old rug and you want a little refresh. But we did include some new features and we rearranged some things to make the, hopefully, knock on wood, to make the user experience a little bit more seamless. So, that I hope, even though people might not even notice it, I hope (I hope) help. And I hope it makes it more of a site that professionals who are working in the field of grief and loss and people who are supporting people who are grieving, I hope these changes make our site more of a site that people want to recommend and send people to, because it's, you know, got something for hopefully for everybody and it's easier to navigate. I'm hoping.

Yes. I think that we've always felt like we have so much content on the site which is amazing, but it can make it a little bit overwhelming when you first come to the site to just kind of figure out Okay where should I go, to navigate hundreds of articles, and sort of all of these different things that we can direct people to with online courses and webinars and ways that you can kind of share things around your grief. And so, I think the news site does a better job of just helping you to get a lay of the land and maybe figure out what you might want to check out, depending on whether you're grieving, whether you're a professional, whether your supporting someone. I think it just, it does all of that a little better.

For sure. And one other thing that it does better is that it brings in some of our projects historically. We've started new projects here and there, and these projects are always around outlets that we identify as things that we feel passionate about that can help people cope with grief and to express their grief. So we have one on photography, that's Photo Grief. We have some that involve, like, creative writing specifically Grief In Six Words. We have a new initiative about grief and recipes, so for people who cook or have recipes, or who for people who like to write and want to write about the experience of cooking or baking a loved one's favorite recipe. We have grief recipe stories. And in the past, we've had a really hard time knowing where to let these projects live, because the heart and soul of these projects are the things that other people shared. It's not what we've written or created. It's what other people write and create. And so we've needed a place for these things to go. And sometimes we would just create a new website and it became really unmanageable and really difficult, I'm sure, for people to navigate. So we've brought these projects into the main site. And now there's information on the Share Your Grief page, it's in the main menu if you're interested. It has a list of the different initiatives and you can click on a button and it takes you to information on how to submit and participate. And then those submissions, in most cases, will be shared just straight on to our blog, where all our other blog posts are shared. So, hopefully it allows us to showcase more of what other people are creating and making in their grief. So, please do check that out. And we're going to actually add a new one. We've talked about griefs, our grief secret project in the past, and we've really struggled to figure out where to put those. We will have information on how to share those on that page but I think what that's going to end up being is probably being shared on social media like Instagram and things like that. So, anyways check it out.

Yeah. And with that, I guess, we should probably get into the topic that we wanted to talk about today.

Yes. For sure, I think, that this is an important topic. And I think that it's not one that (that) gets enough attention. So, just basically, we want to talk about today, How our thoughts, beliefs and attitudes about grief and coping and specifically about how we are grieving and coping can impact how we feel in our grief experiences? So, we talk a lot about how other people and support systems, how their attitudes and beliefs and impact us. And how their beliefs about us impact us. So we talk a lot about how other people make us feel. But we seldom take the time to think about like Hey hold up, like, how are you making yourself feel? Like, are you telling yourself negative things about how you're coping? Are you being really hard on yourself and pushing yourself or not accepting some parts of your experience? And so we think that it's like really important to look at. I think especially important because if we are thinking negatively about ourselves. I think we're more primed to hear the negative from other people. And so, it just gets exacerbated. Whereas, if we feel like, we feel our grief is validated and rational and totally normal and we feel like we have a right to grieve in a certain way or that we're claiming the space degree, we're less likely to let those negative comments from other people impact us and we're more likely to hear the ones that are more validating. Would you agree with that Litsa?

Oh, I think I would. I would definitely agree with that. And I think, you know, in so many ways our expectations, they just impact so many different areas of our life and so when we have certain expectations, we are having certain kind of feelings around that then it actually really affects the way that we hear things from other people and the way we kind of notice and perceive things from other people. And so, I think that that is very very accurate. And so, it becomes really important. And something that we don't do enough, I don't think in grief, to really look at that and say Okay what (what) were our expectations? How are we feeling in comparison to our expectations? And how is that affecting the way we're kind of moving through the world as we grieve?

Right. I think that for this discussion, the most important place to start or the best place to start is with looking at where attitudes and beliefs come from. Because so often we hold assumptions and beliefs that are so ingrained in our (our) belief system, our thought process that we don't always even realize that they exist. So, and some things are more implicit so they are underlying and they aren't really in our consciousness but they impact us. And some things, I think, crop up as what we talk about and refer to as automatic thoughts. So that these are just thoughts that we have about ourselves that just bubble up really quickly without us even realizing it. And they have an impact on how we think and feel. And so, in order to get down to the real base of (of) our thoughts and beliefs and attitudes, I think we should talk a little bit about where these things come from, and then maybe ask you to even hit pause on the podcast to think about this for yourself. Sometimes something that's helpful can be just like writing this down or doing a little free writer journaling about this. Even if you're not a writer, it can be helpful to just do that. So, let's talk about a few areas that we can identify of where these beliefs come from and then we ask people to take these into consideration and then think about their own influences.

Yeah. And I guess probably the (the) best place to start with so many things like this is going back to our family and our childhood and our upbringing. And really thinking about the ways that that impacts so many of our expectations about the world and what's normal and how we create kind of a culture around the way that we do certain things. And I think, certainly, with grief, and just with emotions in general, so much about how our family really kind of invited emotions, how our family handled grief, how our family handled maybe losses that you went through when you were young, all of that can have a really significant impact on what you feel like grief is supposed to look like. Or what you feel like are the acceptable ways to kind of experience grief, share grief, connect with others around grief, you know. All of that can really be rooted in our childhood experiences.

Absolutely. So as kids, we learn by watching. And we talk about this all the time when we do presentations on supporting grieving children, because the adults in our lives are models for how to handle things. So if a child is bereaved they're going to look to their adult and to the parents about how to handle grief and sometimes parents are very normalizing of how up and down and how broad an experienced grief is and how ongoing experience it is. And sometimes they're not. Sometimes parents will try and just put on the appearance of being fine and we're good and we're going to stay strong and we're not going to talk about this or let it get to us. And so, kids learn from a very young age how to handle these types of situations. Do we do we open ourselves up to them and experience them? Or do we try and kind of avoid them or shut them away. And also that goes for all sorts of emotions. So even if it your experience wasn't that you're bereaved as a child but you did learn from the messages you were given from your the adults in your life and how they normalize or validated emotions or didn't. I saw this illustrated, just yesterday. I was doing a little research about crying because I was crying over something really dumb. Whenever I cry it's over, just you're guaranteed, it's over like getting the wrong Taco Bell order or something. But something it made me like tear up and I was like I it feels really good to cry. Like, I personally think it feels really good. And so I was like I'm (I'm) interested to know if that's like a normal experience so I was looking it up and actually, we actually don't know a lot about why we cry. And though there's a lot of people who say like Oh it's for a cathartic release. It does make you feel good. The research doesn't really say that. The research says it's like all across the map. And for many people, crying feel shameful. It makes them feel weak and bad or guilty. And so, I (I) think that it's just a good example of how what we're taught impacts how we feel about our emotions. Because for me, I cry, and I'm like yes so what? I'm crying over something really dumb and it also makes me feel good. But for the person next to me they end up feeling shame. So I think that, it just kind of illustrated to me how (how) formative our early experiences are, and in our family units. But then I think if we take a step out our first (our first) group that we learned to function within is our family. But then we broaden that scope a little bit and look at our society. And how we are functioning in that society, and how we're socialized in that society. And that of course has a big impact on us as well. Like with the crying, example, I think boys and men are more likely to be socialized to feel that crying is not acceptable. But we see society having impact on people in so many different ways especially, I guess, we would say with grief, right.

Oh yeah. I think absolutely. I think, we, whether it's just the emotions that we express, and it's interesting with grief. Because, I think, it can happen in these different ways, where in a lot of ways early on in grief people really actually expect us to be showing a lot of emotions. And so in the very early days of grief, if someone is, you know, crying and (and) sharing their emotions, that sort of normalized of okay in this setting, you know. Very soon after a loss, we would expect this. And actually, sometimes, it's the people who aren't crying or who aren't outwardly showing their emotions where society says Oh something must be wrong. They're repressing all of their feelings, you know. This devastating thing has happened, they (they) should be showing a little bit more. But I think, very quickly with time, right, It doesn't take long at all for society to suddenly be putting on the pressure of, you know, okay now your time to be showing those emotions is over, right. Like, you're, your grief (your grief) timeline window is up and now we kind of expect everybody to have pulled it back together again. So, I think there's a lot of different messages that we get from society in a lot of different directions around how we share these emotions, when we share these emotions, when it's appropriate to show those reactions. You know, those emotions in reaction to. So it really those things that can be come internalized. I think, really easily, if you hear it from enough people, or if you hear it at a young enough age you really start to think Wow, you know. I should be, I shouldn't be crying about this anymore. Or I shouldn't still be upset in this way. Or I should be showing my emotions and crying, why am I not like everybody's, you know. Everybody else around me is (is) showing a lot of emotion. So there's a lot of self-judgment you know that can start to happen. But we really, I think, start to look at how society expects us to grieve and (and) look at those around us as we make those judgments.

I think it's with society, also I think, something that's impacting us and that (that) might not be as obvious to people, is that there have been some pretty significant shifts, in my lifetime at least. So it's something that I can see how things have shifted a little bit. So these shifts have been relatively recent in our society, I think one of the reasons why there's been a shift is because prior to the early 90s, most of the grief theory out there and the grief models were dominated by this idea that there are stages and tasks that you go through. And the models didn't really want people to believe that there was a linear path with a conclusion but it is what impression was given. And specifically the five stages of grief were very popular and (and) most people know that about that (that) theory. And I think that does lead people to believe that this is how grief looks. But in the 90s a new theory came along called Continuing Bonds and I really do think that it made a big shift in how theorists, clinicians, and then every day we're trying to change the narrative and I think it's worth saving the world. I think in general, there is a little bit of shift where people are beginning to normalize, and understand, and validate a more ongoing grief experience where we stay connected to our loved ones and where we don't expect this conclusion. But it is really hard to, like, change a long time of preconceived beliefs about how grief is supposed to look. So you're still going to encounter people who believe that grief is time limited and follows a certain pattern. I think one other thing that's really changed the way our society grieves is social media and just the online and public nature of so many different things. And so we're seeing a lot of norms change around things like taking selfies, self-expression, posting things about your loved one, how you continue your bonds online. And there's some research out there that's, you know, always evolving about that and taking a look at that because there (there) really is a lot to it, I think. And so I do think in our (our) I say in our lifetime, Litsa and I are both in our late 30s for context. We've seen quite a big shift in how things are. But because of that, there's still so much work to be done in terms of, like, understanding where we are and (and) writing the ship in terms of people knowing that (that) their grief is ongoing and that it's okay to continue their bond. And so, there's always going to be some lingering misconceptions and beliefs about grief that are not accurate, that have a pervasive impact on us.

Yeah. And I, you know, I think that when we look at this, I (I) guess the (the) last area that I think we want to quickly touch on before we kind of think about the impact, is that one area where I think we like to believe that we think Oh this is all, these are, this is made up, and this is stories, and this isn't real. But that we do sometimes get messages that we shouldn't discount completely is also media. I mean the media is very influenced by some of the things that you just described, like that idea of grief happening in this very kind of quick and linear way. And how it's displayed for us on in TV and movies. I think is something that can actually also be a way that we internalize it. Especially if we haven't experienced it ourselves, and we haven't really seen it around us, then we think Oh well you know the way I saw it portrayed on that show or in that movie like that must be based on something real. And oftentimes times, it's based you know largely on sort of general societal conceptions. So it's reinforcing these things that society already believes, rather than necessarily kind of being based in accurate experiences, which are in many ways far too complex when it comes to grief to be able to show on quickly in a movie or in a even in a TV show, you know it's hard to capture.

Yeah. I think we've had this discussion with our readers on different platforms before, where they've shared many different examples of portrayals that they've seen on television and movies that were accurate. But for every one of those, I'm sure there's about three or four that are not. You know, because it's just somebody's writing this they may or may not have experience with grief. It's oftentimes just a something that they utilize to move the plot along. And something that they have to wrap up so quickly. And so we want people to always keep that and put that into context. So keep that in mind put it into context, because it may be very over dramatized or truncated but not exactly accurate. And I think (I think) what this speaks to is oftentimes we compare ourselves right so we compare ourselves to what we see on television and movies and we say Oh we didn't (we didn't) feel that way. We didn't respond that way. Our grief lasted much longer. And we do this all (all) over the place. Like, we think about, like, the past personal experience as we've had with grief, or maybe it's our own, or maybe we've observed people around us experience grief. And we've maybe we're comparing ourselves to that person, how they coped. But what you're seeing is just what they're showing you, right, on the outside. And then with social media, again going back to that, we see people posting things about themselves all the time and are they maybe (maybe), you know, they recently experienced a loss and now they are, you know, super whatever. These days, it's homeschool, right. We're all doing our school from home, and they have it together and their schedules are great and they're all, they actually are dressed and they brush their hair, and so it's like Oh wow. They really got (got) themselves together. But we don't know what's actually going on. People only show what they (what they) decide to show. And the same goes for television and movies. And so, we always just caution people from comparing yourself because oftentimes these things are not telling the whole story.

Yeah. And I think that that you know it really leads into why this is important to think about. Because it would be easy to say Okay, you know, we get these ideas from other places. Either from family or society or the media or TV, you know whatever it is. And then when we experience our own loss, we realize Oh, you know, that's not actually the way that I am grieving or that I want to grieve or need to grieving. And we might be tempted to say Well, you know, okay easy enough. So we just adapt and realize that those things were not accurate or were not applicable to how our style of grieving or what we're experiencing. But often, instead of assuming that what we're doing is normal and it's just a little bit different than what we've seen, often we assume Wow, if I saw all these other things that were different, I must be abnormal. The problem must be with me. I must be grieving wrong. I must be grieving, you know, in a way that isn't healthy or that's not socially acceptable or, and so we turn that inward. And it ends up creating a lot, for some people, (a lot) of real self judgment or self-criticism. Sometimes there's a feeling of not wanting to be open about, you know, how people are (are) feeling about what their grief experience looks like because they feel like it's so different than what they expected or what they think other people will expect. And that can start to become really isolating for people.

Yeah. I I think one of the first places that we start this is questioning our grief feelings, emotions and our grief expression. Because I (I) think that we developed this idea of what grief looks like. And we maybe even imagined how we would respond if somebody in our life died. And quite often, what we feel immediately and show is not what we thought we would feel and show. And sometimes we're surprised by the feelings we experience. An example would be that, many times in certain situations, people feel relief. Perhaps because their loved one had been suffering for a long time and that's something that they didn't expect to feel immediately and they feel bad about that. Or perhaps they expected to be just overwhelmed with emotion, maybe crying, screaming and their response is more subdued and calm and perhaps begin to question ourselves because we're not grieving properly. Are we even grieving, are we even human, are we robots because we don't have these feelings when in reality all these responses are normal. Quite a few people immediately feel shock, numbness, and (and) kind of a sense of calm nothingness initially. And so and when I say nothing, when you feel nothing you feel a lot of things. It's just, it's complicated. But numb is probably a better word. And so I think that from the very beginning, people start to question themselves and perhaps even disenfranchise their grief expression as being wrong. And as you said Litsa, then they try and sort of maybe hide it, or disguise it, or mask it or they withdraw in some other way because they're feeling (they're feeling) bad about them. And they're worried what other people are going to think of them.

Yeah. And I think that that is something that really it can be hard to change because it becomes a little bit self-fulfilling, right. Like, if I kind of hole up and never share anything that goes against what I think other people are expecting of me, then I never really determine one way or the other. So, what we can often see, and I think we see this a lot on our posts, is that we share things that sometimes our experiences that go a little bit outside of what people are expecting of kind of a grief from what they've learned or their family taught them or whatever. And you can almost feel this like sigh of relief, sometimes, reading a comment where people are like Oh my gosh, I thought this was just me. Or I'm so glad to find other people who are thinking this, feeling this, experiencing this. Because, sometimes, it's that first indication of I'm not alone. I'm not, you know, wrong or weird. This isn't abnormal. And if we don't find a space to ever connect about that. If we don't say it out loud so that someone else can say Oh yeah me too, then we can always go on feeling like we're the only one, or we're somehow doing it differently or wrong.

Absolutely. And then we end up with increased sense of emotional isolation. And perhaps, even social isolation especially, especially now when everybody's a little bit socially and emotionally isolated. So, that's one area where I think we see people judging themselves immediately. Just talking about the initial loss, I think another thing that we can do is tell ourselves stories about who and who is not deserving of grieving. And I, again, I think this is especially relevant right now. If you're listening to this later, it's (it's) August of 2020 so we're still in the midst of the COVID-19 crisis. And everybody's experiencing loss. Everybody's grieving. And the question becomes, like, who gets to grieve when everybody is grieving in some way? And the answer is everybody gets to grieve. But people sometimes tell themselves, well people are experiencing much worse, so I should not validate these emotions. I should not be grieving. I should not be seeking support because it could be so much worse. And so we end up sort of self-discriminating because we don't believe our losses are worthy. And that might be something that we have learned from early on. And I think this is something that our society, maybe in some ways, tells us is that death losses are the only losses that are deserving of grief. And then even amongst death losses, there does seem to sometimes be this hierarchy that people place on whose losses are important. So, for example, the death of an older person may not be, maybe a little disenfranchised and people may say that goes lower on the hierarchy. Or deaths from more disenfranchised causes or sometimes we either self-discriminate or other people discriminate against our losses. And so, I think that (I think that) this is one area where we have to take a step back and look and say Is this true, this story I'm telling myself about my loss.

Yes. And that can be hard. And I think that that's one of the moments why our reasons that we encourage you, you know, to take some time, maybe after listening to this, to just do a little bit of that assessment for yourself. To really think through, like, Okay, what are some of those thoughts and beliefs that might be kind of getting in my way or not (not) even in my way, but that I've really internalized that may be causing me to have some of these feelings. And going through and thinking about if there are some of these types of losses, really looking at that for yourself, to help to reground in really your own grief experience that can be separated a bit from your feelings of what others are expecting of you. Or what others think about you.

Yes. Your grief doesn't have to be as bad as anyone else's grief to still be grief. And worthy of your time and attention and valid and deserving of support from other people. So..

And I think that one of the last things that we can't, we'd be remiss to end this podcast without mentioning, is just thinking about how all of this can sort of build up in a lot of ways and contribute to the pressure that we put on ourselves to either kind of use some of these words like a, Get over something, or Move forward, or to kind of Find closure. Or even just pressure that we put on ourselves to show a certain outward face to not let people kind of see what we're feeling internally because of our concerns about what they're, you know, what they're feeling and the pressure that we, when we are comparing ourselves to other people that we will sort of sometimes say, I need to do better. Even I've, we've heard this from people who will sometimes even compare themselves to other people who on online, you know, Instagram pages that they follow who are grieving or who are in a group support group or a forum. And, you know, that comparison will lead them to feel this sudden pressure to be doing things (doing things) different or better or in another way in their grief. And that can start to become really overwhelming. And it can start to, again, make us feel just like we're badly about how we're grieving. Badly that we're not living up to this pressure that we've now put on ourselves to make our grief look and feel a certain way.

Yeah. I think (I think) we all have a lot of beliefs about how we should be, right. We have a lot of beliefs about how grief should be. We have a lot of beliefs about how we should be feeling, should be coping, how productive we should be in any given day. And I think what's interesting is if our best friend came to us with the same exact situation where we have and expressed, you know, how they were struggling and that they were feeling bad about themselves, I think most of us would say, Hey you're being really hard on yourself. You've gone through something really significant, it's totally normal to struggle and, like you know, here let me support you in doing whatever you want to do, but whatever you feel you need to do but like also like just go easy on yourselves. But we don't give ourselves that same grace. We oftentimes just beat ourselves up about how we're not measuring up and we talk all the time about how we measure ourselves in grief. And quite often, we measure ourselves and compare ourselves to who we were before the loss and we keep wondering when we're going to go back to that person. And the answer to that is never, because grief changes us, and so we're going to change and we're never going to be exactly who we were before. But even if we're not comparing ourselves to that person we're often comparing ourselves to this ideal future person of who will be when we feel better. And what we really want people to do is to stop comparing yourselves to either of those two hypothetical people and instead compare yourself to where you started on day one with your grief. And I think that you'll see that you are making progress, "quote unquote "you are making steps in the right direction". Look, grief is hard and it goes on for a long time. And there are ups and downs. And you may have two weeks where you're feeling okay and then have a really bad couple of days and that's totally normal. And I know it's so frustrating but it's also very normal. So the pressure that we're often putting ourselves is (is) totally unnecessary. There is no should really when it comes to grief. So, yeah. And (and) of course, you know when we're not measuring up, we often feel bad about ourselves just generally speaking in our self-esteem we might say to ourselves, I always thought I was the type of person who coped really well and who could get over this and who could be a support for my family and friends. I don't understand what's wrong with me. But nothing's wrong with you. Grief is just really really hard. I mean it turns everything upside down. So, this is not a complete list of all the different ways that these beliefs affect you. And I think like we said initially, if you're open to it we really do encourage you to get it out a blank sheet of paper and or (or) type on your computer and just like write down some of the areas where you think you have developed beliefs and attitudes that might be hurting you in your grief, and then how you think these beliefs are affecting you. Because this is a very individual, as you might expect a very individual experience. Because you grew up in whatever communities and groups and families you grew up in and you have a different grief experience on a day-to-day basis. And you handle your grief in different ways. And so, how it affects you is going to be unique to you. And just one other thing that we would encourage, especially if you feel like you don't know a lot about grief, is to read a little bit about what grief is and is not like. Or watch videos if you prefer that. Because I think, once we do hear some of the actual general truths about grief, or read a little bit about it, we realize that maybe some of our beliefs were based on myth and misconceptions. Would you, is out of…

Definitely. I think that is very very true. And I think that it's something that can be really reassuring when people sort of start to read and realize Oh wow, you know, these general simplified ideas about grief, there are many other thoughts and beliefs about how grief works out there and those can be really helpful to learn about, so. Sure. So, plenty of stuff to read on our website whatsyourgrief.com. You can always check it out there. If you have questions for us, ideas for topics on the podcast, please feel free to email us at podcast@whatsyourgrief.com and we will be back with a new episode soon [Music]